An Atonement Conversation

Please comment:

From a friend:

you [you refers to Isaac] said "We have replaced the outside, substitutionary atoning work of Jesus on the cross with a nicer God who doesn't need payment for sin, but who needs for us to be happier by becoming better at life."

i [sic] actually have rejected the Penal Substitutionary view on the Atonement and embraced the much older and classically held view called Christus Vitcor. in this view, God is not a vengeful judge who simply cannot forgive without payment (a picture of God that is not consistent with the rest of the Bible), but rather, a God that is so in love with his Creation that He dies in order to reconcile all things back to Himself from the enemy and his reign on the earth. salvation is about forgiveness, but it's much more about Creation being freed from Satan's grip (2 Tim. 2.26, Gal. 1.4, Gal. 4.3, Rom. 6.18, Gal. 5.1, Heb. 2.14-15, Col. 1.12-13) so, we see a God who is at war with the power of sin (sin, not as a matter of individual behavior, but as this quasi-autonomous power that holds people groups as well as individuals in bondage Rom. 3.9, 6.6-12, 7.7-20, 23, 25) and we are at the center of this. so He's a rescuer, a redeemer, a deliverer. not a judge who is angry at the world because of our sin, but a Creator who's angry at sin and it's effect on the world. this has really transformed my thinking of God, especially as a dad. i just couldn't understand why God had to kill his Son in order to forgive us, when he clearly forgave people throughout the Old Testament without any need for a sacrifice.

Isaac (me) replied:

I appreciate the Christus Victor theory as a part of the work of atonement. There is no doubt that Jesus' work accomplishes victory over sin in general and the ruler of this age.

But, I am convinced that we should, as John Stott says, "...strongly reject, therefore, every explanation of the death of Christ which does not have at its center the principle of '‘satisfaction through substitution,' indeed divine self-satisfaction through divine self-substitution."

Since you have obviously put a lot of thought into this, a few questions:

1) Describe how forgiveness a part from sacrifice is represented in the Old Testament. Explain the scapegoat and the goat that was slain for the sins of the people (Lev 16)

2) Please explain this statement: "God is not a vengeful judge who simply cannot forgive without payment (a picture of God that is not consistent with the rest of the Bible)" -- How is that not consistent with scripture? 

Here are some thoughts about God being angry with people:

Ex 22:22-24

22 “Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan. 23 If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. 24 My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless."

--God seems to be angry here--vengeful against evil doers

2 Sam 6:7

7 "The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God"

--God seems angry (actively angry and vengeful here)

Ps 7:11

11 God is a righteous judge, 

     a God who expresses his wrath every day. 

Eph 2:1-3

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful naturea and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath."

--I would like to point out that the subject of God's wrath in these verses is people--that he has vengeance against people who sin.

Eph 5:6

6" Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient."

--God's wrath is against people here--not just sin (as distinctly separate from people)

In regard to payment for sin:

Lev 17:11

11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

And, in regard to Jesus being the "payment for sin":

**PROPITIATION**

John 11:51-52 

(Caiphus has just said that "it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish")

51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

1 John 2:2

2 He is the **atoning sacrifice** for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 

Romans 3:23-26

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a **sacrifice of atonement**,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 

1 Cor 15:2-3

2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

3) In light of Christus Victor, please explain why Jesus had to die in order to be victorious? How is your interpretation of Jesus' death foretold through the prophets?

4) If personal sin is diminished, how do you deal with human guilt? Are we not responsible for our sins against ourselves and others?

Care to add some thoughts to the conversation?